Interview with a former Challenger tanker

1. Hello J., many thanks for accepting an interview for alejandro-8.blogspot.com. Can you provide us an overview of your career in the British Army?

I joined the army in 1987 after a short stint at being an electrical engineer. Because I was quite small they recommended I join the 16/5th The Queens Royal Lancers, my local armoured  reconnaissance unit. Big tanks didn’t really appeal to me at the time, it looked big and slow and not half as exciting as dashing around the woods behind enemy lines in a CVR(T)! After 6 years we amalgamated with a tank Regiment anyway, (17/21st Lancers) under the governments ‘Options For Change’ program. Those that stayed converted onto Chieftain and Challenger 1. I worked my way through the positions, driver, gunner, operator and after many operational tours around the globe, mounted and dismounted, I reached the heights of Tank Commander Challenger 2, gunnery instructor (and many other numerous qualifications on many other weapon systems).  After my last tour in Al Amarah, Iraq 2004 (attached to the PWRR Battle Group), I was promoted to Sergeant Major and put out to graze as a recruiter  in Nottingham. I very much enjoyed that and got an extension and left the army after 24 years service.

2. What was your impression of the Challenger 1 tank? What do you think were the strong and weak points?

The CR1 was basically a Chieftain in Challenger clothing. Inside, the turrets were almost identical with some minor differences in the sighting systems.

The external stowage was pretty good with an extra basket on the front left of the turret (for cam net and some thermal sheets) and more water Jerry can stowage at the rear.
Engine-wise it was still a pain to swap one out, but driving it was an easier automatic gearbox. I know some drivers preferred the Chieftain seat as they described it as an armchair!

3. When training, what was the typical distance to the objective and speed of the tank when you fired? And the longest distance at which you ever fired?

It depended where we were training, and where you were harboured up prior to an mission.  We’d normally drive no more than a few kms to the Forming Up Point (FUP), and from there deploy in a timely fashion according to your orders. As far as speed, the tactical situation and the ground dictated how and at what speed we’d move to arrive at the FUP at the correct time.

If on an assault onto an objective, we’d generally be only 2km from the enemy before breaking ground and going as fast as the ground permitted, opening fire on anything within your predesignated arc and trying your best to keep level with the other vehicles. Generally on a large frontal assault the gunners would be given full authority to designate and to fire which freed up the Commander to busy himself with navigation, radios and counting shots and types of ammo fired.

The longest I’ve ever fired was 5kms away during an ‘indirect shoot’, which is a bit like using the tank as an artillery piece. For that you naturally have to be static but when firing on the move on a range you like the driver to get up the gears quick and keep it steady at about 30kmh. Drivers would often shout “BUMP” or “TURNING” on the intercom to warn the gunner about the road conditions. The CR1 firing system wasn’t as stable as the CR2 but in any tank, any sharp or unexpected movement of the vehicle could affect the gunners lay.

4. Challenger 1 kept a rifled gun similar to Chieftain's. Do you think it was a good idea?

A great idea! The gun was more accurate than other NATO smooth bores. Yes, we lost some muzzle velocity with Sabot and FIN ammo but this was negligible when you’re talking about speeds around 1,800 m/per sec.

5. Challenger tanks use a human autoloader and 3 piece ammunition. What was the maximum rate of fire you achieved? How did it change as you used the different ammunition bins?

The book used to say one round every eight seconds which was realistic when you consider the time it takes the gunner to do his job in aiming and firing etc. But an actual reload of the gun after it has fired is very quick. I had it down to just over three seconds if the bag charges were in a good place. But that speed couldn’t be sustained as eventually you’d have to start pulling charges from inconvenient bins. Either way it was a he’ll of a lot faster than an autoloader.

When doing long range shoots with HESH (which has a velocity of about 600m/per sec) it was every loaders challenge to get three rounds in the air at the same time, something that gave you massive bragging rights at the bar and much kudos for the crew!
Another bonus of having 3 part ammunition is the fact there are no smoking empty cases filling up the turret to get rid of.

6. British Army made extensive use of HESH ammunition. Can you comment on its characteristics and performance?

As I’ve said, it’s quite a slow round and a heavy one to be throwing around the turret. It’s a good ‘all-rounder’ for use against, bunkers, trenches lightly armoured vehicles and transport. That said, it could take out armour up to 15cm thick. It didn’t necessarily have to penetrate either, it would cause scabbing and spawling that would kill the crew inside. A hit on the weaker parts of the turret like the hatches and sights (which was quite easy due to its slow,  high arcing trajectory) would be devastating, the turret interior would be shredded. As a matter of fact, in 1991, squadrons of Scimitar CVR(T) 30mm went up against tanks of the Iraqi 4th Division on Objective ‘Lead’ and defeated many T55 tanks. They either blew off the tracks and machine gunned the crew when they dismounted their crippled vehicles, or hit the sights and hatches killing the crew inside with tiny bits of shrapnel. Also the explosive blast from a vehicle being hit with 120mm hesh would collapse the lungs of anyone standing close by.

So compare that to a ‘super-velocity’ round that is pretty useless against everything else but tanks and will strike front facing stronger areas of a target, (low trajectory) has to defeat add-on, or reactive plates and then penetrate the armour. If it makes it inside and the crew have the hatches closed, the compression alone will kill the occupants before they get sprayed with molten metal. So you see, APFSDS was good but hesh was very useful.

7. What was the typical ammunition configuration load %(APFDS/HESH/Smoke)?

That depended on what tank you had. Command tanks carried an extra HF Radio so left less room in the bustle for projectiles. It was anything from 45 to 52 rounds in total if I remember rightly. You could squeeze more in if you were desperate or carrying for another callsign,  two HESH bag charges in one bin and extra hesh could be stacked on the turret floor and strapped down. Too high and you ran the risk of the breech crushing them if the gun was elevated too high, so these would be used first.

Depending on your mission objectives we would take a minimum of 3 Smoke sometimes 5, all kept under the gun in the front stowage box. In 1991 more FIN an DU was issued than HESH as it was known we would face up to four times more armour than we had!  So also there’s military doctrine about ratios but as a crew driving through a replen you get what you’re given!

8. What was the maximum distance you covered in a day during deployments or exercises? Did the tank cope well or needed extra maintenance?

Hard to say, in 1991 I was in reconnaissance but the battle group were manoeuvring for over 100 hours during the main battle and I never saw hardly any broken down vehicles. The trick is for all squadrons to keep their mileage down as low as possible due to the natural life of parts and the regular interval servicing that had to be carried out regardless. The desert dust was troublesome but not impossible to cope with. The CR1 would generally do around 20- 30km a day on a typical days training.

9. In terms of maintenance, was there any component or system that was more delicate? Were there any issues with the supply chain?

Banging out air filters was a popular past time! The night vision system seemed to be different on all vehicles, with a well pressured system and a fresh compressor oil change the picture could be great, but if overdue a service it would be rather useless. I never suffered issues with the supply chain. Some larger items were logistically more difficult to ship up to the front, or find you in the middle of the forest (like engines and tracks) but it was down to the efficiency and planning of the echelon forces which could vary from Regiment to Regiment.

10. Challenger received a hydropneumatic suspension while other tanks of its era used torsion bars. What is your opinion on its advantages and disadvantages? Hydrogas suspension was a nice ride, very reliable and a damned sight easier to change than torsion bars!

The only downside was that if it was cold the tank would sit low or sag to the front/ rear or one side and it took a little cross-country driving to warm it up. Quite funny trying to climb aboard a tank that was sitting high, it required leg flexibility, arm strength and a manly groan!

11. One of the big improvements over the Chieftain was the 1,200HP Perkins Condor CV12 engine. When driving/moving can you feel the difference between a 2 stroke and 4 stroke engine?

Didn’t notice the speed difference but take off was smoother and quicker on the CR1. Clutch springs used to fail on the Chieftain, possibly the worst job to replace...after boost filters. The chieftain track was also ‘dead’ so easier to change but a heavy weight for the drive sprockets to get moving. CR1 had a ‘live’ track so a little more work in replacing it but more reactive when driving so a bit more reactive and faster. We all miss the distinctive tubular roar of the Chieftain though!

12. What was the maximum speed you managed to get in a Challenger? And in reverse?

60kph in a CR1, 70kph in a CR2. I Only reversed a CR1 at speed on a firing range to return to the firing point whilst keeping the gun pointing in a safe direction. You went as fast as you dared depending on how competent the driver was and how good your intercom was with the driver. If all good, it was not problem to ‘belt it’ full speed, but if the driver had problems with his ‘left and right’, it would be wise to take it easy if you’re shouting at him which sticks to pull! I had a driver who managed to hit 17 trees in 2 weeks!

13. Did you practise NBC situations? What was the approach?

Yes, a lot!
Put your mask on, clip an NBC radio Mike to the mask and plug it into a dedicated socket on your helmet earphone, then connect the hose from your NBC diffuser to the mask. The NBC system was a heavy load facility and needed a lot of power. Something to consider as it would be wise to turn on the Generator Unit Engine (GUE) to make sure your Computerised Sighting System (CSS) didn’t trip out. The pressure inside the turret would be kept at about 3bar. This stopped any gasses creeping into the turret through minor cracks/ gaps around periscopes and gun mantlet seals.

Once, whilst on exercise as an operator/ loader, my Commander didn’t bother putting his respirator mask on and just plugged the NBC mike into his earphone and left it dangling. If he had to talk on the radio he just he just grabbed the Mike and cupped it next to his mouth. Pretty convincing if you heard it!

In 1991 they estimated we could loose up to 70% of the Recce  forces in the initial chemical bombardments, but it never played out like that in the end and I always felt as safe as houses in a mask and suit, closed down breathing through new filters.

14. Did you have the opportunity to train with other countries (NATO for example)? What was your impression about their training and equipment? Any tank (or other weapon) you liked or disliked?

I trained Iraqi troops and police but only with Russian type small arms etc. We war gamed with the Polish cavalry in Poland once. They were quiet and sneaky in those T72s which were as low as pancakes and hard to spot! I had the opportunity to cross paths with a German Leopard 1 once. It had an incredibly loud engine, rather cramped inside and the gunner told me that occasionally they lost coincidence between the thermal camera and the gun. If the gun went to maximum elevation, the thermal camera wouldn’t follow and just drop and stare at the dirt. We had the same problem on CR1. We called it “TISH Crash”. (Thermal Imaging Sensor Head). It required a quick routine of levelling the gun and operating a flurry of switches and buttons to correct the issue on the Symbology Processing Unit (SPU, affectionately pronounced “Spew”...as in vomit).

We were all jealous of the Leopards manoeuvrability and the fact they could change an engine in twenty minutes!

A task that normally took four hours for us. I always said the best tank in the world would be a CR2 top half and a Leopard bottom half! The deadliest nato pantomime pony.
As for the American M1 Abrams, we used to go down to Grafenwöhr a lot to use their Simnet simulator facility. We often had the chance to visit their range to see them live firing. Never have I seen so many tanks break down in one day! They always boasted about their bigger engines but they were dragging tons of heavy armour so they needed it to keep up with the men on foot!

How confident did you feel when facing T-64/72/80 during the Cold War? (If you served during the Cold War)

I was on CVR(T) during the Cold War and our life expectancy after reporting the positions of the Russian main vanguard force was twenty minutes.

15. Challenger 1 performed well in the Gulf War of 1991. Did you receive any information regarding its use and improvements that could be applied?

Apart from new dust filters and skirts to keep the dust down, they looked the same. The main bonus was the Chobam/ Dorchester armour that didn’t exist on Chieftain.

16. Do you think there was room for improving the Challenger 1 or it was better to move into Challenger 2?

As I’ve mentioned, the CR1 was pretty much an up-armoured Chieftain. Comparing the CR1 to the CR2 is like chalk and cheese. Like stepping out of a Ford Escort and into the Starship Enterprise. Completely new ergonomically, new ‘playstationesque’ controllers, new CSS with a Sagem gunners sight. An entirely new digital software package.

17. Is there any anecdote you would like to share before concluding the interview?

Yes, in 1989 a German Panzer captain came to our Regiment to give a presentation on the Leopard tank. He stood firmly at the lecturn with a really cold sturn face, sharply removed his cap in a brisk parade drill move and slowly surveyed the auditorium with a sneer of authority....“Good mornink gentle-mens, I am Captain Steiner from ze 13th Panzer grenadier Battalion....as you can tell, I am German, so throughout ziss presentation...zer vill be NO...jokes”

We all sank in our chairs thinking ‘wow, it’s true about the Germans!’  
 
The captain then bent down slightly to press ‘play’ on a video recorder. We were then subjected to the most action packed jaw dropping video of a Leopard doing impossible feats of speed, spinning, jumping through hoops of fire, hull spinning one way, turret spinning the other, guns blazing, targets exploding as it effortlessly engaged in car crushing mayhem to sound of a German military band......

Needless to say, we all knew our Chieftain’s would mostly crawl out of the gate, dead tracks clanking, dumping oil on the road as the clutch springs struggled and engines giving up 20 yards down the road. I guess he knew that too, because the video finished, he pressed the ‘stop’ button, stood up straight and with a massive grin on his face, his head head went slowly from left to right with three words....

“Ha...Ha...Ha!”

He was the first German to make me laugh!

Other interviews:

I am always looking for more veterans, active members or people related with the defence industry to accept interviews. If you enjoyed reading the material and would be happy to accept an anonimous interview you can get in contact with me. My e-mail can be found in this link at the heading. Otherwise leave a message in the comment sections.

- Interview with a former M551 Sheridan driver
- Interview with a former Centurion tank driver in the Army of Sweden
- Interview with a former Centurion tanker in the Army of Denmark
- Interview with a USAF pilot who flew the F-106 Delta Dart
- Interview with an US Army M48A5/M60A1 veteran tanker
- Interview with a former British artilleryman and veteran of the Gulf War
- Former M60 tanker in the Army of Austria
- Former Chieftain crew member
- Former Chieftain gunner
- AMX30 commander of the Army of France
- NCO of the Army of Serbia 
- Former crew member of Challenger 2
- Former Leclerc commander
- T-72 driver in Czech Army  
- US Army M60 tank crewmman
- Interview with D., former US Army tanker with experience in the M60 and M1 Abrams
- Interview with Stefan Kotsch, former NVA/Bundeswehr tanker  
- Interview with former Marine and writer Kenneth Estes

Interview with a former Chieftain gunner

1. Hello S., many thanks for accepting an interview for alejandro-8en.blogspot.com. Could you provide us an overview of your career in the British Army?

I joined British army at the tender age of 16 ½ in 1984 under the long established Junior Leaders System. This takes younger soldiers and trains them over an extended period (in my case 15 months) with a view to them being well prepared to become Non Commissioned Officers when they have served the required time at their Regiment.

In my case I had completed the recruiting process and been offered a place in The Blues and Royals which was then an MBT Regiment based in Detmold in Germany as part of the British Army of the Rhine. As an armoured crewman I trained initially at the Junior Leaders Regiment Royal Armoured Corps. Then based in Stanley Barracks Bovington situated directly opposite the well known Bovington Tank Museum.

The training  was comprehensive and I emerged out of the other end of it as a  Chieftain Gunner, having completed basic training in all aspects of soldiering coupled with  signalling and  a full 120mm gunnery course. This included all aspects of maintenance of the weapon, the coaxial GPMG (FN Mag/M240), Commanders MG, loading, and live firing which was conducted at the nearby Lulworth ranges.

I joined my Regiment in Germany where I served two years on Chieftain, before we converted to Challenger and moved to Sennelager a posting that I do not recommend. This was at the height of the Cold War and all our annual training cycles were geared towards meeting the threat of a large Soviet Warsaw Pact Armoured thrust into Europe.

As the 90s approached and the Warsaw Pact disintegrated we were rotated back to Windsor in England where we converted to the CVRT family of vehicles as a Formation Reconnaissance Regiment. I was to spend the next ten years on these vehicles over time crewing every type except the Swingfire missile equipped Striker and the Samaritan ambulance. I took these light effective vehicles all over the world including exercises in Canada, Egypt, and three operational tours of Bosnia as part of the UN and later NATO.

2. What do you think were the strong and weak points of the Chieftain tanks?

I have a very soft spot for Chieftain as my first mount but I am not blind to its faults. It will not be a shock to most when I say that it’s engine was a source of real trouble to us crews. Not only for its unreliability but to work on some aspects of it (the gearbox for example) required the removal of large parts of the exhaust system. We were very confident of the 120mm rifled guns ability to take on Soviet vehicles, and we believed that we were well armoured. We were comfortable on the vehicle its  ergonomics were excellent for the time, though we could have done with a heater for those German winters! What many people tend to overlook when they criticise Chieftain is the job it was designed to do. In the British sector our role was to fight a defensive battle to but time to initiate the reinforcement operations from the US and elsewhere.

We would fight while withdrawing onto out logistical supply chain in a series of delaying actions. The Germans plans were always if possible to launch a spoiling attack and then thrust into East Germany hence the Leopards 1 & 2, I think the Americans were planning a combination of both defending the Fulda Gap but also taking early offensive action hence the M1.

3. When training, at was the typical distance to the objective and speed of the tank when you fired? And the longest distance at which you ever fired?

We conducted yearly two week firing camps at the Bergen Hohne NATO range complex. These started with static single vehicle engagements working up to the whole troop advancing to contact down lanes engaging a range of targets presented. These were timed and marked for accuracy and standards had to be met for the Regiment to pass the training. The whole process was highly competitive and reputations were made and lost. Infantry targets were engaged around 800m generally though 1100m was the maximum. Armoured vehicle targets were engaged usually up to 2500m though again the weapon was capable of longer range hits this was considered unrealistic in a European scenario. The Chieftains stabiliser was not particularly advanced and it took a skilled gunner to hit targets on the move at all but the closest range.

In this phase of training 10-15mph and the driver would get a kick if he changed gear at the wrong time! I do not recall the longest range that I fired at but I suspect it would have been with HESH which we did train to use on what we called High Elipse shoots almost as artillery. I once watched a crew of Gunnery Instructors demonstrate a HESH shoot at 6000m on an old bunker.

4. How was the night firing conducted? Did you use flares for battlefield illumination? At what sort of ranges could you fire with the IR projector? How did the thermal sight improved night fighting?

Night firing was a problem at this time for Chieftain crews. The Mark 9s that we used had no real night fighting capability beyond an illuminated graticle! We were forbidden to use the searchlights either in IR or white light mode. Any night firing would have been done in conjunction with artillery or mortar illumination, but I do not recall practising this. It was a great relief when Challenger arrived with its thermal Gunnery sight.  

5. Early Chieftain variants used a ranging gun to measure distance to objective. Did you ever use it? If so, did you find it effective? Were you concerned about losing sight of tracers or confusing them with others during a battle?

The ranging guns had long gone when I arrived at the Regiment and the apertures welded over. A few of the senior NCOs had used them but I seldom heard any comment beyond how heavy they were to carry from the armoury to the tank park.

6. Chieftain kept a rifled gun while other models introduced smoothbore guns. Do you think it was a good idea?

At the time we believed (what we were told!) That our rifled gun was the most accurate hard hitting weapon in the world. The internet did not exist and most data on other systems was not freely available. Remember at this time the M1 only had the L7 105mm gun as did most of NATO apart from Leopard 2 coming into service we did not have much to compare it to. We were confident that APFSDS would do the job and DU even more so.

7. Chieftain tanks use a human autoloader and 2 piece ammunition. What was the maximum rate of fire you achieved? How did it change as you used the different ammunition bins?

A slight correction to your question our ammunition was technically three piece consisting of the Round, the propellant bag charge, and the Vent Tube (imagine a .50 case without the bullet). The latter was fired into the bag charge to initiate firing and fed into the breech block from a ten round magazine. We believed (again as we were told) that it was a safer system with WW2 being pointed to as the basis for this. We were well drilled, the loaders usually being more experienced crew members (new recruits starting as drivers or gunners). A good crew could crank out a round every four seconds, this would obviously slow as ready rounds were used up but firing over the frontal arc gave good access these. Not for nothing did the loaders get a sweat on during firing.

8. British Army made extensive use of HESH ammunition. Can you comment on its characteristics and performance?

Not for nothing does the rest of the world view the British love affair with HESH with amusement. Whilst I was on Chieftain in the late 80s it was still regarded as a useful round against light armour and transport targets. We were aware that it’s thin casing did not fragment as effectively as true HE rounds. Today far more modern and effective general purpose rounds have rendered it mostly obsolete. It is however still an effective round in built up areas. A friend who served with distinction as a Scimitar troop commander in Afghanistan lamented to me that he greatly missed his old Scorpion which he believed would have been far more effective against hard packed compound walls than high velocity 30mm rounds.

9. What was the typical ammunition configuration load (% APDS/HESH/Smoke)?

I’m struggling to remember the exact number of rounds that we carried as the stowage was altered during my time with the change from APDS as the main anti armour round to APFSDS but we carried 36 Fin rounds and around 30 HESH/Smoke. Though we would only carry two smoke if any. The mix could be altered on a mission basis as you could fit two HESH propellant charge’s in a standard stowage bin but only one Fin charge. These bins were surrounded by water jackets in Chieftain but these were changed to Armoured bins in Challenger.

10. In terms of maintenance, was there any component or system that was more delicate? Were there any issues with the supply chain?

I really do not recall any system that gave us particular trouble besides the engine. The gun control equipment was robust, as were the radios and other systems. The hatches leaked water like sieves, how it would ever have been regarded as CBRN proof is beyond me! As for spare parts as with anything to do with the British Army there is never any money. If we damaged anything through negligence then we would be expected to pay the whole cost for cheaper items or a percentage for expensive stuff. This made us careful. The stores for replacement parts was overseen by a fearsome old Captain. You had better have a good story ready to get anything out of him.

11. What was the maximum distance you covered in a day during deployments or exercises? Did the tank cope well or needed extra maintenance?

We deployed any real distance by rail or tank transporters. On the larger Reforger type exercises in Germany we might cover 20km a day, less when tactical training on Soltau. I do recall once carrying out a Regimental Road march of 60km. It was carnage, my vehicle broke down 4km from home. I waited hours for a recovery vehicle. Such moves were very hard on the running gear and we would lose track pads and rubber off our road wheels. Every time we halted all drivers would be out checking hubs, track pins and tightening road wheel bolts.

12. The Leyland L60 engine was an issue in early Chieftain models. Were the problems solved in the variants you used?

The later engines were better. I was lucky to have a recently Base overhauled vehicle in my last Troop (these were completely stripped to a bare hull and rebuilt with all new systems and modifications ), it never let us down. The more frequently the vehicles were used the more reliable they became. Parking them up for weeks at a time caused many problems such as seal failures.

13. One of the theoretical advantages of the Leyland L60 was that it was multifuel. Did you ever use this feature in training or manoeuvres? Is there any procedure that needs to be followed if different fuels are used (clean filters, purge components)?

No the multifuel option was never used at all. In fact considering that the multifuel capability was a NATO stipulation we were the only idiots that tried to use it!

14. Chieftain used a Horstmann suspension, while other tanks of its era used torsion bars. What is your opinion on its advantages and disadvantages?

The Horstman suspension worked well, although I remember it was very noisy compared to Challengers hydrogas. My Squadron had an American Major Commanding on an exchange and he believed Chieftain to be superior cross country to the M60. I never had to replace one myself but the spring packs within the Horstman units did  break occasionally and could be a real pain to replace as they were under pressure. If the retaining bolts were damaged then they would need to be cut with oxyacetylene torches. It payed not to be near the spring when it came free.

15. What was the maximum speed you managed to get in a Chieftain? And in reverse?

I was not a driver. I did move them around the tank park and occasionally drove them on exercises for short periods. I think 25mph was about tops though it would get to that speed quickly. In reverse I do not know. I do remember that on our local driver training area the West German Leo crews liked to cruise past us backwards when we were going forwards as fast as we could……

16. Did you practise NBC situations? What was the approach? How did it affect the crew performance (especially loader)?

NBC was a very important part of our training it was considered a major threat from the Warsaw Pact. Everything that we did we did in NBC kit. When we deployed on exercise our suits went on, when we drove back into the camp at the end we took them off. We dug trenches in it, we deployed chemical warning sentries with Nerve agent detecting devices, we put detector papers on our vehicle hatches which were activated by training agents and we had to react as if it was a real attack. We had days where we had to work the whole day on the vehicle park in respirators to practice maintenance in them. We were tested every year on our suit and mask drills with CS gas. Lastly we fired serials at Gunnery camp wearing the kit. I actually found it easier to fire using the secondary battle telescope sight wearing a respirator because I could get the lens closer than with the binocular IFCS sight.

17. Some Chieftain tanks were deployed in Berlin. Did you consider urban scenarios in your training?

We did not have the specialised urban training facilities in Germany at the time like we used later in England on Salisbury Plain (ironically when this was built it was modelled on a German town in layout and building style). We trained in built up areas in the larger field training exercises but never in cities. Tactics and camouflage was practised and hessian camouflage painted to resemble bricks was carried by our command vehicles. We did deploy our D Squadron to Berlin to allow the 14/20th Hussars Squadron a period to carry out training on the Gunnery ranges at Hohne. They took their own Chieftains in standard camouflage. But did use the time to practice city fighting.

18. Did you have the opportunity to train with other countries (NATO for example)? What was your impression about their training and equipment? Any tank (or other weapon) you liked or disliked?

We all had our own areas of responsibility so whilst we trained alongside our NATO allies we did not integrate regularly to any great extent. I was lucky to have an American Exchange officer Commanding my Squadron. He was far from the easy going Yank I was expecting! He was highly professional, very demanding, and held very high standards. I was very impressed. I felt he had an edge on some of our own  more “Cavalry type” officers. He arranged an exchange program so I went on a couple of exercises (including a border deployment) with  Bravo Troop 1/11 ACR in Fulda. The also sent a couple of M1s and M3 Bradley’s to cross train at-our Gunnery camp. I found them to be far more modern vehicles than Chieftain, the fire control system was very advanced with its integrated thermal sight and they could fire far more accurately on the move than us. They still had the L7 105mm gun at this point. Their Gunnery training simulators were also far more advanced than our analog ones. In the mid 90s I did do a Squadron Exchange with a Spanish Cavalry Regiment 14 Alamansa (Forgive me if  my spelling or unit designation is incorrect) in Leon. We were very impressed with the VEC and it’s Weapon system, less impressed with the M47, but we had a great time even though it rained most of the time. We were well looked after and were looking forward to hosting your Countrymen in return at Windsor however your government cancelled the visit on the grounds of cost sadly.

19. Chieftain was operated by other countries (Oman, Kuwait, Iran). Did you get any feedback from their use or reports from combat experiences?

I do not remember getting any real time feedback on Chieftains performance in the Iran/Iraq war. This did not filter down to us until many years later. The lessons were obviously taken on board because the fitting of the  Stillbrew armour package were as a direct result of a British military team being given access to captured and damaged vehicles by (ironically) Saddam Hussain.

20. Did you receive intelligence on potential threats (T-72, AT missiles)? If so, how accurate was it once you got access to the weapon?

We were given statistical facts and figures (ranges etc) on Warsaw Pact equipment and we were taught recognition at all levels. A friend of mine actually crewed a T-72 trial vehicle which the British government had “acquired” he was very impressed by it indeed. It’s simplicity and rugged design. We were always confident that we were the match for T64/72 series vehicles especially with Challenger but T-80 was an unknown quantity to us then.

21. What is your opinion on turbines and autoloaders? These devices were introduced in the 1970s by other tanks (T-80 and Abrams).

We were fed the age old lines about Soviet era autoloaders, that they had a tendency to try and feed the gunners arm  into the breech, and also that follow up shots were difficult because the gun had to elevate of target to reload. I was very sceptical of them for many years. After all and extra crewman helped with maintenance, guard, and in British crews cooked the food. As time has gone on I see how efficient they have become and I feel as calibers increase they will become essential. I was actually part of a vehicle trial program to study the feasibility of two man crews in a modified Warrior vehicle (google the VERDI 2 program).

Gas turbines I am less sold on. Crewing an Abrams the unit literally had a fuel tanker following it and the M1 were filled up whenever they stopped. That kind of logistic support is quite difficult for anyone without an  American style infrastructure. I would be interested to see how the Egyptians coped in any conflict.

22. Vickers developed more advanced variants of Chieftain that were never bought by the British Army (Khalid). Did you have a chance to familiarise yourself with them?

No. I only ever saw these in photos and museums. We used to dream about having the Khalids powerpack.

23. Do you think Chieftain could have been developed more or it was better to move into the Challenger series?

If you had ever been inside a Chieftain you would have seen the issue with any future development. Any updates were literally shoehorned into every space. The gunner actually sat on top of the fire control computer (they were huge in those days). I never crewed the Stillbrew Chieftain with the TOGs thermal sights but I can imagine that they were just bolted onto the existing systems.

Chieftain had reached the end of its development. Without a new engine and radical redesign it would have been pointless. This was an expensive waste with Challenger waiting in the wings as a stopgap until Challenger 2 came into service which was the true planned Chieftain replacement.

Other interviews:

- AMX30 commander of the Army of France
- NCO of the Army of Serbia 
- Former crew member of Challenger 2
- Former Leclerc commander
- T-72 driver in Czech Army  
- US Army M60 tank crewmman
- Interview with D., former US Army tanker with experience in the M60 and M1 Abrams
- Interview with Stefan Kotsch, former NVA/Bundeswehr tanker  

More interviews can be found in the Spanish version of the blog (link), including veterans of Leo 2, AMX30, M48/60 and REME.

I am always looking for more veterans, active members or people related with the defence industry to accept interviews. If you enjoyed reading the material and would be happy to accept an anonimous interview you can get in contact with me. My e-mail can be found in this link at the heading. Otherwise leave a message in the comment sections.