1. Hello S., many thanks for accepting an interview for alejandro-8en.blogspot.com. Could you provide us an overview of your career in the British Army?
I joined British army at the tender age of 16 ½ in 1984 under the long established Junior Leaders System. This takes younger soldiers and trains them over an extended period (in my case 15 months) with a view to them being well prepared to become Non Commissioned Officers when they have served the required time at their Regiment.
In my case I had completed the recruiting process and been offered a place in The Blues and Royals which was then an MBT Regiment based in Detmold in Germany as part of the British Army of the Rhine. As an armoured crewman I trained initially at the Junior Leaders Regiment Royal Armoured Corps. Then based in Stanley Barracks Bovington situated directly opposite the well known Bovington Tank Museum.
The training was comprehensive and I emerged out of the other end of it as a Chieftain Gunner, having completed basic training in all aspects of soldiering coupled with signalling and a full 120mm gunnery course. This included all aspects of maintenance of the weapon, the coaxial GPMG (FN Mag/M240), Commanders MG, loading, and live firing which was conducted at the nearby Lulworth ranges.
I joined my Regiment in Germany where I served two years on Chieftain, before we converted to Challenger and moved to Sennelager a posting that I do not recommend. This was at the height of the Cold War and all our annual training cycles were geared towards meeting the threat of a large Soviet Warsaw Pact Armoured thrust into Europe.
As the 90s approached and the Warsaw Pact disintegrated we were rotated back to Windsor in England where we converted to the CVRT family of vehicles as a Formation Reconnaissance Regiment. I was to spend the next ten years on these vehicles over time crewing every type except the Swingfire missile equipped Striker and the Samaritan ambulance. I took these light effective vehicles all over the world including exercises in Canada, Egypt, and three operational tours of Bosnia as part of the UN and later NATO.
2. What do you think were the strong and weak points of the Chieftain tanks?
I have a very soft spot for Chieftain as my first mount but I am not blind to its faults. It will not be a shock to most when I say that it’s engine was a source of real trouble to us crews. Not only for its unreliability but to work on some aspects of it (the gearbox for example) required the removal of large parts of the exhaust system. We were very confident of the 120mm rifled guns ability to take on Soviet vehicles, and we believed that we were well armoured. We were comfortable on the vehicle its ergonomics were excellent for the time, though we could have done with a heater for those German winters! What many people tend to overlook when they criticise Chieftain is the job it was designed to do. In the British sector our role was to fight a defensive battle to but time to initiate the reinforcement operations from the US and elsewhere.
We would fight while withdrawing onto out logistical supply chain in a series of delaying actions. The Germans plans were always if possible to launch a spoiling attack and then thrust into East Germany hence the Leopards 1 & 2, I think the Americans were planning a combination of both defending the Fulda Gap but also taking early offensive action hence the M1.
3. When training, at was the typical distance to the objective and speed of the tank when you fired? And the longest distance at which you ever fired?
We conducted yearly two week firing camps at the Bergen Hohne NATO range complex. These started with static single vehicle engagements working up to the whole troop advancing to contact down lanes engaging a range of targets presented. These were timed and marked for accuracy and standards had to be met for the Regiment to pass the training. The whole process was highly competitive and reputations were made and lost. Infantry targets were engaged around 800m generally though 1100m was the maximum. Armoured vehicle targets were engaged usually up to 2500m though again the weapon was capable of longer range hits this was considered unrealistic in a European scenario. The Chieftains stabiliser was not particularly advanced and it took a skilled gunner to hit targets on the move at all but the closest range.
In this phase of training 10-15mph and the driver would get a kick if he changed gear at the wrong time! I do not recall the longest range that I fired at but I suspect it would have been with HESH which we did train to use on what we called High Elipse shoots almost as artillery. I once watched a crew of Gunnery Instructors demonstrate a HESH shoot at 6000m on an old bunker.
4. How was the night firing conducted? Did you use flares for battlefield illumination? At what sort of ranges could you fire with the IR projector? How did the thermal sight improved night fighting?
Night firing was a problem at this time for Chieftain crews. The Mark 9s that we used had no real night fighting capability beyond an illuminated graticle! We were forbidden to use the searchlights either in IR or white light mode. Any night firing would have been done in conjunction with artillery or mortar illumination, but I do not recall practising this. It was a great relief when Challenger arrived with its thermal Gunnery sight.
5. Early Chieftain variants used a ranging gun to measure distance to objective. Did you ever use it? If so, did you find it effective? Were you concerned about losing sight of tracers or confusing them with others during a battle?
The ranging guns had long gone when I arrived at the Regiment and the apertures welded over. A few of the senior NCOs had used them but I seldom heard any comment beyond how heavy they were to carry from the armoury to the tank park.
6. Chieftain kept a rifled gun while other models introduced smoothbore guns. Do you think it was a good idea?
At the time we believed (what we were told!) That our rifled gun was the most accurate hard hitting weapon in the world. The internet did not exist and most data on other systems was not freely available. Remember at this time the M1 only had the L7 105mm gun as did most of NATO apart from Leopard 2 coming into service we did not have much to compare it to. We were confident that APFSDS would do the job and DU even more so.
7. Chieftain tanks use a human autoloader and 2 piece ammunition. What was the maximum rate of fire you achieved? How did it change as you used the different ammunition bins?
A slight correction to your question our ammunition was technically three piece consisting of the Round, the propellant bag charge, and the Vent Tube (imagine a .50 case without the bullet). The latter was fired into the bag charge to initiate firing and fed into the breech block from a ten round magazine. We believed (again as we were told) that it was a safer system with WW2 being pointed to as the basis for this. We were well drilled, the loaders usually being more experienced crew members (new recruits starting as drivers or gunners). A good crew could crank out a round every four seconds, this would obviously slow as ready rounds were used up but firing over the frontal arc gave good access these. Not for nothing did the loaders get a sweat on during firing.
8. British Army made extensive use of HESH ammunition. Can you comment on its characteristics and performance?
Not for nothing does the rest of the world view the British love affair with HESH with amusement. Whilst I was on Chieftain in the late 80s it was still regarded as a useful round against light armour and transport targets. We were aware that it’s thin casing did not fragment as effectively as true HE rounds. Today far more modern and effective general purpose rounds have rendered it mostly obsolete. It is however still an effective round in built up areas. A friend who served with distinction as a Scimitar troop commander in Afghanistan lamented to me that he greatly missed his old Scorpion which he believed would have been far more effective against hard packed compound walls than high velocity 30mm rounds.
9. What was the typical ammunition configuration load (% APDS/HESH/Smoke)?
I’m struggling to remember the exact number of rounds that we carried as the stowage was altered during my time with the change from APDS as the main anti armour round to APFSDS but we carried 36 Fin rounds and around 30 HESH/Smoke. Though we would only carry two smoke if any. The mix could be altered on a mission basis as you could fit two HESH propellant charge’s in a standard stowage bin but only one Fin charge. These bins were surrounded by water jackets in Chieftain but these were changed to Armoured bins in Challenger.
10. In terms of maintenance, was there any component or system that was more delicate? Were there any issues with the supply chain?
I really do not recall any system that gave us particular trouble besides the engine. The gun control equipment was robust, as were the radios and other systems. The hatches leaked water like sieves, how it would ever have been regarded as CBRN proof is beyond me! As for spare parts as with anything to do with the British Army there is never any money. If we damaged anything through negligence then we would be expected to pay the whole cost for cheaper items or a percentage for expensive stuff. This made us careful. The stores for replacement parts was overseen by a fearsome old Captain. You had better have a good story ready to get anything out of him.
11. What was the maximum distance you covered in a day during deployments or exercises? Did the tank cope well or needed extra maintenance?
We deployed any real distance by rail or tank transporters. On the larger Reforger type exercises in Germany we might cover 20km a day, less when tactical training on Soltau. I do recall once carrying out a Regimental Road march of 60km. It was carnage, my vehicle broke down 4km from home. I waited hours for a recovery vehicle. Such moves were very hard on the running gear and we would lose track pads and rubber off our road wheels. Every time we halted all drivers would be out checking hubs, track pins and tightening road wheel bolts.
12. The Leyland L60 engine was an issue in early Chieftain models. Were the problems solved in the variants you used?
The later engines were better. I was lucky to have a recently Base overhauled vehicle in my last Troop (these were completely stripped to a bare hull and rebuilt with all new systems and modifications ), it never let us down. The more frequently the vehicles were used the more reliable they became. Parking them up for weeks at a time caused many problems such as seal failures.
13. One of the theoretical advantages of the Leyland L60 was that it was multifuel. Did you ever use this feature in training or manoeuvres? Is there any procedure that needs to be followed if different fuels are used (clean filters, purge components)?
No the multifuel option was never used at all. In fact considering that the multifuel capability was a NATO stipulation we were the only idiots that tried to use it!
14. Chieftain used a Horstmann suspension, while other tanks of its era used torsion bars. What is your opinion on its advantages and disadvantages?
The Horstman suspension worked well, although I remember it was very noisy compared to Challengers hydrogas. My Squadron had an American Major Commanding on an exchange and he believed Chieftain to be superior cross country to the M60. I never had to replace one myself but the spring packs within the Horstman units did break occasionally and could be a real pain to replace as they were under pressure. If the retaining bolts were damaged then they would need to be cut with oxyacetylene torches. It payed not to be near the spring when it came free.
15. What was the maximum speed you managed to get in a Chieftain? And in reverse?
I was not a driver. I did move them around the tank park and occasionally drove them on exercises for short periods. I think 25mph was about tops though it would get to that speed quickly. In reverse I do not know. I do remember that on our local driver training area the West German Leo crews liked to cruise past us backwards when we were going forwards as fast as we could……
16. Did you practise NBC situations? What was the approach? How did it affect the crew performance (especially loader)?
NBC was a very important part of our training it was considered a major threat from the Warsaw Pact. Everything that we did we did in NBC kit. When we deployed on exercise our suits went on, when we drove back into the camp at the end we took them off. We dug trenches in it, we deployed chemical warning sentries with Nerve agent detecting devices, we put detector papers on our vehicle hatches which were activated by training agents and we had to react as if it was a real attack. We had days where we had to work the whole day on the vehicle park in respirators to practice maintenance in them. We were tested every year on our suit and mask drills with CS gas. Lastly we fired serials at Gunnery camp wearing the kit. I actually found it easier to fire using the secondary battle telescope sight wearing a respirator because I could get the lens closer than with the binocular IFCS sight.
17. Some Chieftain tanks were deployed in Berlin. Did you consider urban scenarios in your training?
We did not have the specialised urban training facilities in Germany at the time like we used later in England on Salisbury Plain (ironically when this was built it was modelled on a German town in layout and building style). We trained in built up areas in the larger field training exercises but never in cities. Tactics and camouflage was practised and hessian camouflage painted to resemble bricks was carried by our command vehicles. We did deploy our D Squadron to Berlin to allow the 14/20th Hussars Squadron a period to carry out training on the Gunnery ranges at Hohne. They took their own Chieftains in standard camouflage. But did use the time to practice city fighting.
18. Did you have the opportunity to train with other countries (NATO for example)? What was your impression about their training and equipment? Any tank (or other weapon) you liked or disliked?
We all had our own areas of responsibility so whilst we trained alongside our NATO allies we did not integrate regularly to any great extent. I was lucky to have an American Exchange officer Commanding my Squadron. He was far from the easy going Yank I was expecting! He was highly professional, very demanding, and held very high standards. I was very impressed. I felt he had an edge on some of our own more “Cavalry type” officers. He arranged an exchange program so I went on a couple of exercises (including a border deployment) with Bravo Troop 1/11 ACR in Fulda. The also sent a couple of M1s and M3 Bradley’s to cross train at-our Gunnery camp. I found them to be far more modern vehicles than Chieftain, the fire control system was very advanced with its integrated thermal sight and they could fire far more accurately on the move than us. They still had the L7 105mm gun at this point. Their Gunnery training simulators were also far more advanced than our analog ones. In the mid 90s I did do a Squadron Exchange with a Spanish Cavalry Regiment 14 Alamansa (Forgive me if my spelling or unit designation is incorrect) in Leon. We were very impressed with the VEC and it’s Weapon system, less impressed with the M47, but we had a great time even though it rained most of the time. We were well looked after and were looking forward to hosting your Countrymen in return at Windsor however your government cancelled the visit on the grounds of cost sadly.
19. Chieftain was operated by other countries (Oman, Kuwait, Iran). Did you get any feedback from their use or reports from combat experiences?
I do not remember getting any real time feedback on Chieftains performance in the Iran/Iraq war. This did not filter down to us until many years later. The lessons were obviously taken on board because the fitting of the Stillbrew armour package were as a direct result of a British military team being given access to captured and damaged vehicles by (ironically) Saddam Hussain.
20. Did you receive intelligence on potential threats (T-72, AT missiles)? If so, how accurate was it once you got access to the weapon?
We were given statistical facts and figures (ranges etc) on Warsaw Pact equipment and we were taught recognition at all levels. A friend of mine actually crewed a T-72 trial vehicle which the British government had “acquired” he was very impressed by it indeed. It’s simplicity and rugged design. We were always confident that we were the match for T64/72 series vehicles especially with Challenger but T-80 was an unknown quantity to us then.
21. What is your opinion on turbines and autoloaders? These devices were introduced in the 1970s by other tanks (T-80 and Abrams).
We were fed the age old lines about Soviet era autoloaders, that they had a tendency to try and feed the gunners arm into the breech, and also that follow up shots were difficult because the gun had to elevate of target to reload. I was very sceptical of them for many years. After all and extra crewman helped with maintenance, guard, and in British crews cooked the food. As time has gone on I see how efficient they have become and I feel as calibers increase they will become essential. I was actually part of a vehicle trial program to study the feasibility of two man crews in a modified Warrior vehicle (google the VERDI 2 program).
Gas turbines I am less sold on. Crewing an Abrams the unit literally had a fuel tanker following it and the M1 were filled up whenever they stopped. That kind of logistic support is quite difficult for anyone without an American style infrastructure. I would be interested to see how the Egyptians coped in any conflict.
22. Vickers developed more advanced variants of Chieftain that were never bought by the British Army (Khalid). Did you have a chance to familiarise yourself with them?
No. I only ever saw these in photos and museums. We used to dream about having the Khalids powerpack.
23. Do you think Chieftain could have been developed more or it was better to move into the Challenger series?
If you had ever been inside a Chieftain you would have seen the issue with any future development. Any updates were literally shoehorned into every space. The gunner actually sat on top of the fire control computer (they were huge in those days). I never crewed the Stillbrew Chieftain with the TOGs thermal sights but I can imagine that they were just bolted onto the existing systems.
Chieftain had reached the end of its development. Without a new engine and radical redesign it would have been pointless. This was an expensive waste with Challenger waiting in the wings as a stopgap until Challenger 2 came into service which was the true planned Chieftain replacement.
Other interviews:
- AMX30 commander of the Army of France
- NCO of the Army of Serbia
- Former crew member of Challenger 2
- Former Leclerc commander
- T-72 driver in Czech Army
- US Army M60 tank crewmman
- Interview with D., former US Army tanker with experience in the M60 and M1 Abrams
- Interview with Stefan Kotsch, former NVA/Bundeswehr tanker
More interviews can be found in the Spanish version of the blog (link), including veterans of Leo 2, AMX30, M48/60 and REME.
I am always looking for more veterans, active members or people related with the defence industry to accept interviews. If you enjoyed reading the material and would be happy to accept an anonimous interview you can get in contact with me. My e-mail can be found in this link at the heading. Otherwise leave a message in the comment sections.
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