Interview with a former Leclerc crew member

A few weeks ago a former Leclerc crew member accepted an interview for the blog. I would like to thank W. for his time and effort. It is worth mentioning taht W also served in AMX30, so he can explain the change from one tank to the other.

1) Hello W., thank you for accepting an interview for alejandro-8en.blogspot.com. Could you provide us with a summary of your career in the French Army?

I began my duty in 1986 in 2eme Régiment de Cuirassiers in Reutlingen, Germany, as AMX30B2 tank commander. Transfered in 2eme Régiment de Dragons in Laon, France, as AMX30B as tank commander then platoon sergeant. Transfered in 503eme Regiment de Chars de Combat in Mourmelon for the end of experimentation of Leclerc MBT as Platoon sergeant.

Transfered in Abu Dhabi as Leclerc expert for UAE Land Forces. Coming back to 1er Regiment de Chasseurs in Verdun, France, as Platoon commander then regimental master gunner. Going back to Abu Dhabi as technical and tactical instructor for UAE Land Forces in UAE Armor School. Retired in 2015.

Deployments:

1993 and 1995 : former yougoslavia and Sarajevo as recon unit on VBL.
1999 - 2000 : kosovo on Leclerc as platoon sergeant.
2006 : Chad as platoon commander on ERC90 sagaie.
2009 - 2010 : south Lebanon as platoon commander and master gunner on Leclerc.

my 2 times in UAE are considered as deployments...

2) What was your first impression of the Leclerc tank and how did it compare to the AMX 30 you had used before?

Remember that when I discovered the Leclerc, I came from AMX30B, a tank build during the 60s-70s with a 50s technology. So my 1st impression was a shock: all this 80s technology gathered in a brand new tank, just for me!!!! Lol. In the Leclerc, you do not have any revolutionary technology but this tech is made to facilitate the job of the crew: Moving faster with the pure efficient power pack, moving effectively with the inertial navigation, destroying targets at 4000m with a digital and thermal imagery, firing faster on the move with the autoloader. I said to myself: “yes, now, we are real tankers!!!”

3) What do you think are Leclerc's strong and weak points? Was there any system that could have been improved?

According to me the strongest point of this tank is the firing computer. GIAT engineers created an amazing algorithm who takes into account all the usual parameters like distance, temperatures, air pressure, altitude but also some parameters like the potential shaking on the control modules, the rotation of earth, the angle between the hull and the turret. This firing computer forgives so many mistakes to the gunner that, if you miss your target, you can blame the gunner, it can not come from the tank.

Related to this firing computer, this tank was really made to shot on the move, whatever the speed of the tank and the target and whatever the position of the turret. The firing algorithm and the stabilization are so efficient that you don t really feel any difference between a shot on the move and a static one.
For me, the last strong capability of the Leclerc is its mobility. Combined with its “small” size, that mobility makes it as a difficult target to hit on the battlefield.

Weak points?? Do you know any tank commander ready to admit any weak points on his beloved baby? Ok, I have a few. This MBT could be difficult to use. I mean if you are not the master of its technology, you cannot be good in tactics because you will spend all your time to wonder what happens in this tank (vocal alerts, vocal proposals made by the system, technical choices to be validated on the screens).

As a cold war tank, the Leclerc is a tank killer made to battle on the Ukrainian lowlands and not in cities. It is not well equipped to destroy infantry : 12.7 coax with 150 rounds ready, and external and MANUAL 7.62machine gun. That means that or the TC or the GNR (on the French Leclerc) must get out to use this MG.

The protection could have been better. But it is always a balance between protection and mobility…
After more than 20 years of duty, the XLR (Leclerc renove or Updated Leclerc in English) will improve all these weak points (Increased protection, new on-board electronic, remote external weapon).  

4) AMX 30 had a 20 mm coaxial gun, while Leclerc moved back to a more standard 12,7 mm M2 machine gun. Did you consider it to be a good decision?

You cannot imagine how the French tankers loved the 20mm. But this gun was just too big to fit in the Leclerc turret. The choice of the 12.7 is not, for me, the best one. The 12.7 is still a big MG and the space in the turret is limited. That s why we have only 150 rounds ready to fire. It s a kind of nightmare to refill the ammunition box. It could have been a better choice to have a 7.62 coax with 2500 rounds.

5) You transitioned from a 4 crew tank to a 3 crew model with autoloader. What is your opinion on this device? Did the maintenance become more intensive because you lost 1 member? This was one of the reasons why the Leclerc was rejected by the UK.

The legend of more intensive maintenance with a crew of three is false. If you are well organized, everything is fine. Of course, when you have to work on the tracks it could be tricky because 1 track is 2.2 tons. But everything is about coordination and organization. For example, in Kosovo, my crew and me had to change the tracks 3 times in 2 days and it was done. As a tank crew member, you know that the maintenance is heavy. If you don t want that you must choose another job.

6) The autoloader contains 22 rounds, another 18 are located next to the driver. How the procedure to replenish the autoloader once is is exhausted? Is this coordinated with other tanks in a platoon?

You have different ways to refill the autoloader:

• The official one says that you have to do that from inside the tank. This method was prescribed to protect the crew from shrapnel and in NRBC conditions. This method is too long.

• After different tries during experimentation, the fastest way to refill the autoloader from the drum next to the driver, is to pull the shells out by the gunner and to put them in the autoloader by its external access. It is fast, convenient and you use the autoloader software in the way it must be used to avoid non-recognized ammunitions by the system.

• You must coordinate that action under the responsibility of the platoon commander. The time you spend to refill the autoloader can’t be spent to fire on targets…Usually, the platoon commander planned these refills between 2 actions, 2 tanks by 2 tanks and the platoon sergeant planned the logistic to refill the drums.

7) When training, what is the maximum distance at which you open fire? And the maximum speed when firing on the move? What is the typical rate of fire? Was there any time you missed the human loader?

The “blue” shell is a little less efficient than the real one that is why we fire the exercise (blue) HEAT at 2300m (average). We don t have any blue APFSDS in the French army, we only fire real APFSDS, mainly in Al Hamra, Live firing range in UAE. This firing range is wide and we are able to fire APFSDS at 3800m (average). The only limitation, in term of speed and rate of fire, is the skills of the crew.

I personally fired an APFSDS at 3400m with a speed of more than 55KM/H with my most experienced crew.

This is the weirdest thing about this tank : the limitations come from the crew, not from the MBT by itself.

I never missed my human loader except for the coffee and for preparing my MRE…lol

8) Leclerc received a thermal sight. How did the night fighting capability improved with respect to AMX 30 versions that did not have it? Did you also use it during the day?

With the thermal sights, 1 for the gunner and 1 for the TC, you fight 24h a day. During the AMX30 era (except the last AMX30B2 equipped with CASTOR thermal sight), the nights were quiet as we were not really able to fire without light (provided by other tanks or artillery/mortars shells).
The thermal sights are really efficient and you fight (not only fire) during the night as you fight during the day.

It is so efficient that we use the thermal sights even during the day to detect very far targets (even humans) and in hard environments like cities. The detection range could be more than 7kms if the meteo is good, particularly in winter.

9) Did you exploit the hunter-killer capability to it's full extent? A few years ago there was some debate about the convenience of having it, as it could overwhelm the commander, who needs to focus in controlling the tank and pay attention to the BMS (Battle Management System)?

For me, hunter/killer means the TC hunts the targets while the GNR kills the target. It is exactly the way we use the Leclerc, but all the MBTs equipped with an independent 360 commander sight.

The procedure is easy : the TC aims a target with his sight then rally the turret by taking over the turret. The gunner sight is so perfectly on the target. The gunner reports on intercom that he is able to see/destroy the target. The TC release the turret control to the GNR and move his sight to find another target. And so on...

Hunter/killer and autoloader are the best friends of the tank commander…

10) Did you practice NBC scenarios? What procedures were applied?

Not often. I don t know why it is not really in cultural in the French army since the end of the cold war anymore as it was before. I am not an expert in NBC warfare.

The procedures are easy to follow. According to the level of threat, you start your NBC system (high filtered air pressure in the tank). If the level is really high, put the gas mask on.

After action, you are guided to specialized units to wash your tank with huge “karchers”. When it is done, you get outside, throw to special trash bins everything you wear and take some new BDU…
Not the best part of my training…

11) When performing exercises, what was the maximum distance you covered in a day? Were there any issues with the maintenance of the tank? What about the spare parts, any shortage?

Depends on your type of trainings and missions. You always cover more distance for offensive missions than defensive missions.

During Kosovo deployment, we were used as “light tanks” for controlling a huge area. We covered between 300 and 500kms per day without any problem. After 3 or 4 days of issues due to this heavy usage, the tanks got used of it and we did not have too much problem except the maintenance of the track pads. I was really surprised by the reliability of the Leclerc and it was a big and good surprise.

To maintain any heavy tanks, your logistic chain must be efficient. Let’s say it was not the case, and it is not still the case for the French army, even if it has improved these last years….

12) In your service you transitioned from the Cold War to local wars. Did you receive intelligence on likely opponents (T-72, AT missiles, IEDs)?

One more time, I knew 2 very different eras.

During the cold war, with my conscripts, we had a lot of lectures and instructions regarding the capabilities of the “fucking reds”. Tanks, missiles, tactics, everything must have been known according to your rank and responsibilities.

At the end of the cold war, I had the feeling, and I was not alone, that we forgot a big part of these instructions and lecture. Even the tank identification training was almost not done anymore.
 The tank commanders of my generation kept training their crews as before. Almost everybody thought we were dinosaurs..

The situation changed few years ago when the land forces chief of staff realized we had a lack of instruction.

13) Leclerc has been sold with 2 different engine types (MT883 diesel and Hyperbar diesel engine). How do they compare in different climates? What about the maintenance?

2 different generations of engines.

• MTU is 80s technology. Reliable and easy to maintain. Classic turbo charged V12 bi turbo of 27liters for 1500HP.
• Wartsila hyperbar. Full optimized diesel engine. Turbine charged V8 16liters for 1500HP.
•   
These 2 different technologies have their positive and negative sides. The maintenance is easier on MTU but the engine, according to me, is a little less efficient. The maintenance is sharp on the Hyperbar but this engine is amazing.

For hot climates, I have to admit than the MTU is perfect. The Hyperbar suffers issue, not from its technology, but by the electronic supposed to protect the powerpack…

14) Leclerc has only been exported to UAE. Other countries have chosen other options. What are your thoughts on? Do you think the Leclerc could have been modified/improved to get more success?

All is about the price.

GIAT can’t fight General dynamics and KMW in term of production. The less you produce, the highest is the cost. The Leclerc arrived also on the market while these 2 companies had a huge amount of used tanks to sell.

The problem came maybe from the company demonstrators, a team of civilians. But it is only my opinion.

15) Did you have the train with personnel from other countries? What were your impressions? Did you use/evaluate other tanks (Leopard 2, Abrams, T-90)? Was there one that you liked or disliked in particular?

I like all the tanks. I worked a lot with allies during my time in Germany and I appreciated all of them.
Americans for their infinite logistic, German for their professionalism (even with conscripts lol), British for their professionalism and phlegm.

My choice could be the Leopard 2. It seems to be a tank made by tankers for tankers. Everything in this tank is useful, solid and efficient. In 2 words : Deutsche qualitat…

My choice cannot be any Russian tanks. Of course, it is rustic and easy to use but you must be a dwarf to enter the turret…

16) When deployments in Kosovo or Lebanon took place, was there any kit installed for local conditions? Did your unit take extra spares?

On the tank by themselves, no major kit was added. We just patrolled with light vehicles equipped with IED sensors and inhibitors.

17) In 2015-2016 there were some news (L'Opinion) about Saudi Arabia buying 250 Leclerc as they had proved themselves in Yemen. Do you think it would be feasible to re-open production line?

It was almost impossible to re-open the production line in Roannes (main factory of NEXTER systems) because it was or destroy for a part, or dedicated to produce other vehicles. It could have been feasible only with a prohibitive cost…

18) In the 90s France developed more advanced versions of Leclerc, including one with a 140 mm gun. Did you have the opportunity to see it? What is your opinion? What do you think should be improved for the MLU (Mid Life Upgrade)?

The MLU is on its way in France and the first batch could be delivered at the end of this year.

Many improvements are planned: protection (add-on armor, ventral protection, anti RPG protection), networking (SCORPION program), 7.62 RWS, HMI modifications, replacement of obsolete components (mainly vetronic and electronic), new firing control calculator, multi mode 120 ammunition (delay, impact, airburst), IED jammer.

The 140mm worked well during trials. More than 200 rounds were used during these trials. It seems that the calibre increases the power by more than 60% with minor modifications on chassis and in the turret (mainly the recoil brakes). The autoloader is 20 140mm shells. I have no info about the internal drum (the 140 shells are far longer than the 120). The future of this gun is uncertain as the MGCS is still have a 120 and Rheinmetall is pushing hard for his 130mm. The 140 could be the answer to the armata T14 as the Russian are planning to put a 152mm on it.