Interview with a former Challenger tanker

1. Hello J., many thanks for accepting an interview for alejandro-8.blogspot.com. Can you provide us an overview of your career in the British Army?

I joined the army in 1987 after a short stint at being an electrical engineer. Because I was quite small they recommended I join the 16/5th The Queens Royal Lancers, my local armoured  reconnaissance unit. Big tanks didn’t really appeal to me at the time, it looked big and slow and not half as exciting as dashing around the woods behind enemy lines in a CVR(T)! After 6 years we amalgamated with a tank Regiment anyway, (17/21st Lancers) under the governments ‘Options For Change’ program. Those that stayed converted onto Chieftain and Challenger 1. I worked my way through the positions, driver, gunner, operator and after many operational tours around the globe, mounted and dismounted, I reached the heights of Tank Commander Challenger 2, gunnery instructor (and many other numerous qualifications on many other weapon systems).  After my last tour in Al Amarah, Iraq 2004 (attached to the PWRR Battle Group), I was promoted to Sergeant Major and put out to graze as a recruiter  in Nottingham. I very much enjoyed that and got an extension and left the army after 24 years service.

2. What was your impression of the Challenger 1 tank? What do you think were the strong and weak points?

The CR1 was basically a Chieftain in Challenger clothing. Inside, the turrets were almost identical with some minor differences in the sighting systems.

The external stowage was pretty good with an extra basket on the front left of the turret (for cam net and some thermal sheets) and more water Jerry can stowage at the rear.
Engine-wise it was still a pain to swap one out, but driving it was an easier automatic gearbox. I know some drivers preferred the Chieftain seat as they described it as an armchair!

3. When training, what was the typical distance to the objective and speed of the tank when you fired? And the longest distance at which you ever fired?

It depended where we were training, and where you were harboured up prior to an mission.  We’d normally drive no more than a few kms to the Forming Up Point (FUP), and from there deploy in a timely fashion according to your orders. As far as speed, the tactical situation and the ground dictated how and at what speed we’d move to arrive at the FUP at the correct time.

If on an assault onto an objective, we’d generally be only 2km from the enemy before breaking ground and going as fast as the ground permitted, opening fire on anything within your predesignated arc and trying your best to keep level with the other vehicles. Generally on a large frontal assault the gunners would be given full authority to designate and to fire which freed up the Commander to busy himself with navigation, radios and counting shots and types of ammo fired.

The longest I’ve ever fired was 5kms away during an ‘indirect shoot’, which is a bit like using the tank as an artillery piece. For that you naturally have to be static but when firing on the move on a range you like the driver to get up the gears quick and keep it steady at about 30kmh. Drivers would often shout “BUMP” or “TURNING” on the intercom to warn the gunner about the road conditions. The CR1 firing system wasn’t as stable as the CR2 but in any tank, any sharp or unexpected movement of the vehicle could affect the gunners lay.

4. Challenger 1 kept a rifled gun similar to Chieftain's. Do you think it was a good idea?

A great idea! The gun was more accurate than other NATO smooth bores. Yes, we lost some muzzle velocity with Sabot and FIN ammo but this was negligible when you’re talking about speeds around 1,800 m/per sec.

5. Challenger tanks use a human autoloader and 3 piece ammunition. What was the maximum rate of fire you achieved? How did it change as you used the different ammunition bins?

The book used to say one round every eight seconds which was realistic when you consider the time it takes the gunner to do his job in aiming and firing etc. But an actual reload of the gun after it has fired is very quick. I had it down to just over three seconds if the bag charges were in a good place. But that speed couldn’t be sustained as eventually you’d have to start pulling charges from inconvenient bins. Either way it was a he’ll of a lot faster than an autoloader.

When doing long range shoots with HESH (which has a velocity of about 600m/per sec) it was every loaders challenge to get three rounds in the air at the same time, something that gave you massive bragging rights at the bar and much kudos for the crew!
Another bonus of having 3 part ammunition is the fact there are no smoking empty cases filling up the turret to get rid of.

6. British Army made extensive use of HESH ammunition. Can you comment on its characteristics and performance?

As I’ve said, it’s quite a slow round and a heavy one to be throwing around the turret. It’s a good ‘all-rounder’ for use against, bunkers, trenches lightly armoured vehicles and transport. That said, it could take out armour up to 15cm thick. It didn’t necessarily have to penetrate either, it would cause scabbing and spawling that would kill the crew inside. A hit on the weaker parts of the turret like the hatches and sights (which was quite easy due to its slow,  high arcing trajectory) would be devastating, the turret interior would be shredded. As a matter of fact, in 1991, squadrons of Scimitar CVR(T) 30mm went up against tanks of the Iraqi 4th Division on Objective ‘Lead’ and defeated many T55 tanks. They either blew off the tracks and machine gunned the crew when they dismounted their crippled vehicles, or hit the sights and hatches killing the crew inside with tiny bits of shrapnel. Also the explosive blast from a vehicle being hit with 120mm hesh would collapse the lungs of anyone standing close by.

So compare that to a ‘super-velocity’ round that is pretty useless against everything else but tanks and will strike front facing stronger areas of a target, (low trajectory) has to defeat add-on, or reactive plates and then penetrate the armour. If it makes it inside and the crew have the hatches closed, the compression alone will kill the occupants before they get sprayed with molten metal. So you see, APFSDS was good but hesh was very useful.

7. What was the typical ammunition configuration load %(APFDS/HESH/Smoke)?

That depended on what tank you had. Command tanks carried an extra HF Radio so left less room in the bustle for projectiles. It was anything from 45 to 52 rounds in total if I remember rightly. You could squeeze more in if you were desperate or carrying for another callsign,  two HESH bag charges in one bin and extra hesh could be stacked on the turret floor and strapped down. Too high and you ran the risk of the breech crushing them if the gun was elevated too high, so these would be used first.

Depending on your mission objectives we would take a minimum of 3 Smoke sometimes 5, all kept under the gun in the front stowage box. In 1991 more FIN an DU was issued than HESH as it was known we would face up to four times more armour than we had!  So also there’s military doctrine about ratios but as a crew driving through a replen you get what you’re given!

8. What was the maximum distance you covered in a day during deployments or exercises? Did the tank cope well or needed extra maintenance?

Hard to say, in 1991 I was in reconnaissance but the battle group were manoeuvring for over 100 hours during the main battle and I never saw hardly any broken down vehicles. The trick is for all squadrons to keep their mileage down as low as possible due to the natural life of parts and the regular interval servicing that had to be carried out regardless. The desert dust was troublesome but not impossible to cope with. The CR1 would generally do around 20- 30km a day on a typical days training.

9. In terms of maintenance, was there any component or system that was more delicate? Were there any issues with the supply chain?

Banging out air filters was a popular past time! The night vision system seemed to be different on all vehicles, with a well pressured system and a fresh compressor oil change the picture could be great, but if overdue a service it would be rather useless. I never suffered issues with the supply chain. Some larger items were logistically more difficult to ship up to the front, or find you in the middle of the forest (like engines and tracks) but it was down to the efficiency and planning of the echelon forces which could vary from Regiment to Regiment.

10. Challenger received a hydropneumatic suspension while other tanks of its era used torsion bars. What is your opinion on its advantages and disadvantages? Hydrogas suspension was a nice ride, very reliable and a damned sight easier to change than torsion bars!

The only downside was that if it was cold the tank would sit low or sag to the front/ rear or one side and it took a little cross-country driving to warm it up. Quite funny trying to climb aboard a tank that was sitting high, it required leg flexibility, arm strength and a manly groan!

11. One of the big improvements over the Chieftain was the 1,200HP Perkins Condor CV12 engine. When driving/moving can you feel the difference between a 2 stroke and 4 stroke engine?

Didn’t notice the speed difference but take off was smoother and quicker on the CR1. Clutch springs used to fail on the Chieftain, possibly the worst job to replace...after boost filters. The chieftain track was also ‘dead’ so easier to change but a heavy weight for the drive sprockets to get moving. CR1 had a ‘live’ track so a little more work in replacing it but more reactive when driving so a bit more reactive and faster. We all miss the distinctive tubular roar of the Chieftain though!

12. What was the maximum speed you managed to get in a Challenger? And in reverse?

60kph in a CR1, 70kph in a CR2. I Only reversed a CR1 at speed on a firing range to return to the firing point whilst keeping the gun pointing in a safe direction. You went as fast as you dared depending on how competent the driver was and how good your intercom was with the driver. If all good, it was not problem to ‘belt it’ full speed, but if the driver had problems with his ‘left and right’, it would be wise to take it easy if you’re shouting at him which sticks to pull! I had a driver who managed to hit 17 trees in 2 weeks!

13. Did you practise NBC situations? What was the approach?

Yes, a lot!
Put your mask on, clip an NBC radio Mike to the mask and plug it into a dedicated socket on your helmet earphone, then connect the hose from your NBC diffuser to the mask. The NBC system was a heavy load facility and needed a lot of power. Something to consider as it would be wise to turn on the Generator Unit Engine (GUE) to make sure your Computerised Sighting System (CSS) didn’t trip out. The pressure inside the turret would be kept at about 3bar. This stopped any gasses creeping into the turret through minor cracks/ gaps around periscopes and gun mantlet seals.

Once, whilst on exercise as an operator/ loader, my Commander didn’t bother putting his respirator mask on and just plugged the NBC mike into his earphone and left it dangling. If he had to talk on the radio he just he just grabbed the Mike and cupped it next to his mouth. Pretty convincing if you heard it!

In 1991 they estimated we could loose up to 70% of the Recce  forces in the initial chemical bombardments, but it never played out like that in the end and I always felt as safe as houses in a mask and suit, closed down breathing through new filters.

14. Did you have the opportunity to train with other countries (NATO for example)? What was your impression about their training and equipment? Any tank (or other weapon) you liked or disliked?

I trained Iraqi troops and police but only with Russian type small arms etc. We war gamed with the Polish cavalry in Poland once. They were quiet and sneaky in those T72s which were as low as pancakes and hard to spot! I had the opportunity to cross paths with a German Leopard 1 once. It had an incredibly loud engine, rather cramped inside and the gunner told me that occasionally they lost coincidence between the thermal camera and the gun. If the gun went to maximum elevation, the thermal camera wouldn’t follow and just drop and stare at the dirt. We had the same problem on CR1. We called it “TISH Crash”. (Thermal Imaging Sensor Head). It required a quick routine of levelling the gun and operating a flurry of switches and buttons to correct the issue on the Symbology Processing Unit (SPU, affectionately pronounced “Spew”...as in vomit).

We were all jealous of the Leopards manoeuvrability and the fact they could change an engine in twenty minutes!

A task that normally took four hours for us. I always said the best tank in the world would be a CR2 top half and a Leopard bottom half! The deadliest nato pantomime pony.
As for the American M1 Abrams, we used to go down to Grafenwöhr a lot to use their Simnet simulator facility. We often had the chance to visit their range to see them live firing. Never have I seen so many tanks break down in one day! They always boasted about their bigger engines but they were dragging tons of heavy armour so they needed it to keep up with the men on foot!

How confident did you feel when facing T-64/72/80 during the Cold War? (If you served during the Cold War)

I was on CVR(T) during the Cold War and our life expectancy after reporting the positions of the Russian main vanguard force was twenty minutes.

15. Challenger 1 performed well in the Gulf War of 1991. Did you receive any information regarding its use and improvements that could be applied?

Apart from new dust filters and skirts to keep the dust down, they looked the same. The main bonus was the Chobam/ Dorchester armour that didn’t exist on Chieftain.

16. Do you think there was room for improving the Challenger 1 or it was better to move into Challenger 2?

As I’ve mentioned, the CR1 was pretty much an up-armoured Chieftain. Comparing the CR1 to the CR2 is like chalk and cheese. Like stepping out of a Ford Escort and into the Starship Enterprise. Completely new ergonomically, new ‘playstationesque’ controllers, new CSS with a Sagem gunners sight. An entirely new digital software package.

17. Is there any anecdote you would like to share before concluding the interview?

Yes, in 1989 a German Panzer captain came to our Regiment to give a presentation on the Leopard tank. He stood firmly at the lecturn with a really cold sturn face, sharply removed his cap in a brisk parade drill move and slowly surveyed the auditorium with a sneer of authority....“Good mornink gentle-mens, I am Captain Steiner from ze 13th Panzer grenadier Battalion....as you can tell, I am German, so throughout ziss presentation...zer vill be NO...jokes”

We all sank in our chairs thinking ‘wow, it’s true about the Germans!’  
 
The captain then bent down slightly to press ‘play’ on a video recorder. We were then subjected to the most action packed jaw dropping video of a Leopard doing impossible feats of speed, spinning, jumping through hoops of fire, hull spinning one way, turret spinning the other, guns blazing, targets exploding as it effortlessly engaged in car crushing mayhem to sound of a German military band......

Needless to say, we all knew our Chieftain’s would mostly crawl out of the gate, dead tracks clanking, dumping oil on the road as the clutch springs struggled and engines giving up 20 yards down the road. I guess he knew that too, because the video finished, he pressed the ‘stop’ button, stood up straight and with a massive grin on his face, his head head went slowly from left to right with three words....

“Ha...Ha...Ha!”

He was the first German to make me laugh!

Other interviews:

I am always looking for more veterans, active members or people related with the defence industry to accept interviews. If you enjoyed reading the material and would be happy to accept an anonimous interview you can get in contact with me. My e-mail can be found in this link at the heading. Otherwise leave a message in the comment sections.

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