Interview with a former M60/Abrams tanker

A former M60/Abrams tanker has kindly accepted an interview for the blog. T served between 1983 and 1997 in both Patton and Abrams variants, and also in the National Training Centre in a M551.

1) Hello T., many thanks for accepting an interview with alejandro-8.blogspot.com. Could you provide an introduction to your service in the US Army?

I was a tanker from 1983 through 1997. I was a Platoon Sergeant/SFC. My first tank was an M48A5, M60A3 TTS, IPM1 and finally a M1A1. At NTC we had M60A3 as our "official" tanks and M551s as our T-72s.

2) Early in your career you served in a M48A5/M60A3TTS Patton tanks. What was your impression of the vehicle, and the strong/weak points?  

My first tank and first command was an M48A5. I learned everything from it. It was just a real good basic tank. Very reliable, an accurate coincidence rangefinder, simple basic computer. Rarely did anything seriously break that you couldn't fix with an adjustable wrench, screw driver or a hammer. You sighted the gun through the  breechblock and with a set of string at the end of the gun tube. It was designed to hit and stay in the fight. From that perspective it was exceptionally reliable in all categories.

On the negative of course was age. The night sights were designed for searchlights using IR. It was an art using them and took quite a while to get the hang of it for some gunners. We much rather preferred calling for mortar illumination. As a bonus calling for fire and making adjustments was a talent most adapted to. The armor was typically similar to what we faced in T-62 and T-55 and we knew the 105 was a far better gun. The coax, M219, was absolutely garbage. Literally two shots and jam. Both myself and the loader had an M60D. Good guns bit I would have preferred an M2 on my position.

3) When training, at was the typical distance to the objective and speed of the tank when you fired? And the longest distance at which you ever fired?

Typical distance was probably 20- 30 miles for company level training and a bit more for battalion force on force exercises. The M48 did not have a stab system so we fired from a short halt. The M60A3 did but probably only fired around 5-8 mph. That was usually the optimum speed where the stab and the suspension were controllable. The range from memory was around battlesight , 1800m. Longest distance ever fired on an M60A3TTS was @3200m which was a hit. An M48A5 was probably 2500 to 2800m.

4) How was the night firing conducted in the M48A5? Did you use flares for battlefield illumination? Or IR projectors? Which one did you find more useful? At what sort of distances you could open fire?

As I mentioned before, the M48A5 used IR / white searchlight and mortar Illum. Mortar Illum was preferred. For most engagements we just went with battlesight. If the target looked like it was in that range we just kept the rangefinder dialed into 1800m and fired. Of course if you had a clear shot ranging was just as fast.

5) M60A3TTS introduced a very advanced thermal sight. Hoqw did it change the night firing? Did you also use it during the day?

The thermal sight was a game changer. When we went through transitioning they billed it as exclusively a night sight, however we quickly discovered the advantages of using it exclusively. Being able to pick out vehicle or personnel not typically seen. It was at this point we  began night training far more seriously to include tactical operations, night fighting using MILES systems. Prior to receiving M60A3 TTS I did several rotations as OPFOR 32nd Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment at NTC on M551/ T-72  VISMODS. They had a similar night fighting setup as the M48A5.

During my first rotation we we in a reserve position against a 1st Cav Brigade equipped with M1s. A night attacked was conducted by them and a code word "Bananas, Bananas" was broadcast telling us to deploy. My Motor Rifle Battalion was moving within 15 minutes around 0330. Knowing where the first battalion was located I assumed we might make contact in about 20-30 minutes. All the commanders had AN/PVS5 night goggles. About 10 minutes into the road march in the pitch black I was blinded by the flashes of the M1s. Easily 10 vehicles were knocked out in the first volley. Night sights were useless and a couple of us switched to white light to find them. Too little too late. I died on the second volley and a minute later watched as an M1 sped past me going 35+mph. A 1Cav pendant on the antenna. Thirty vehicles knocked out in literally five minutes to no losses.

6) In terms of maintenance, was there any component or system that was more delicate? Were there any issues with the supply chain?

On the M48/M60, not many things broke, except possibly torsion bars and other automotive components. Maintenance was beaten into our heads seriously. By the time we had gotten M1s many bugs were solved. I do remember computer systems having unresolved witches, in which case it was just pulled. Getting parts was generally not a problem, except for engines or transmissions. Being said during the run up to the First Gulf War much of that became a non issue as the war stocks were opened up.

7) What was the typical ammunition configuration load (% APFSDS/HEAT/WP/Smoke)? Did you have specific rounds for certain targets (APFSDS for T-64/72/80)?

The actual mix I honestly don't remember. With the M48A5 we carried everything. APDS, HEAT, HEP, Beehive and WP. I only ever carried the first three. Fired Beehive once and never saw WP.

M60A3 could carry all, but even HEP went as way by then. M1 was only APFSDS and HEAT. And I always remember somewhat heavier on APFSDS, but not by much. With any tank target APFSDS was always the go to. HEAT was for anything else.

8) What was the maximum distance you covered in a day during deployments or exercises? Did the tank cope well or needed extra maintenance?

The terrain was very similar to Germany on all respects. Ironically especially while in the National Guard at Fort Drum. Distance during those days was about 20 miles a day

9) The M60 is one of the largest (and most comfortable) tanks. Do you think it was worth it (it was also a larger target)?

The M60A3 was the tallest, but given it's depression could be hidden rather well. I never really had a concern about it's size and I was known for my abilities in masking my movements with terrain.  Not an issue in my opinion.

10) The M19 commander cupola in the M60 is one element which has not proved popular, and some operators removed it. What do you think?

Not a fan of the cupola. Nice in some ways, but the feed system for the M85 was in my opinion the reason for the weapons reputation, not the gun itself. The M85 was actually the weapon chosen first  for the commanders mount. On a simple box feed it ran all day. Twist the ammo in the cupola and it was a nightmare.

11) Did you have the opportunity to train with other Armies? What were your impressions? Did you like/dislike any specific equipment?

I did have an opportunity to train with the Bundeswehr. They were excellent soldiers by and large. They were fighting in home position and I wouldn't want to go against them. I viewed their Leo II like our M1s by and large with the M1 coming away better on armor. I enjoyed the equipment diversity of the Territorial Army as nothing was thrown away. So the Soviets would would have found a missile jeep, recoiless rifle or tank destroyer of some kind around every bush and bend.

12) You trained in the National Training Center (NTC). Can you comment on how benefitial it was to the tank crews? Do you think it should be adapted to future threats like China?

I think the NTC was / is critical. It afforded the ability to conduct unrestricted large-scale joint forces training. Continuously throughout the year. Every 21 days was a new rotation of a brigade. Absolutely Yes it should be reconfigured to the PLA threat. Obviously I am out of that current loop, so I have no idea what the current syllabus entails. But large scale maneuver, drone, counter drone, cyber assault integration, PEER level air assets, air denial. Everything a Peer Level threat would bring to the table as opposed to an insurgent threat.

13) Did you struggle to switch to Soviet tactics?

No. Not really. They had an introduction academy and the first rotation as a Soviet you were pretty much a filler or observer in my case. They broke companies down into integrated combined arms "battalions" and March formations such as battalion, company, platoon column were fairly easy.

14) In the NTC you operated T-55/62 tanks. What was your impression? What were the features you liked/disliked?

We had exposure to T-62 and T-55 tanks. A couple were operational for familiarity, but not for training as Soviets. I was actually rather surprised at the size and lack of what I saw and regarded as normal. I wouldn't want to face someone like me in a T-55. They were certainly rather robust vehicles like an M48A5 but aside from charging enmasse I really didn't think highly of them. I respect the abilities as a tank and wouldn't underestimate anyone inside one, but I was confident that I was better.

15) During the Cold War the US Army would organise REFORGER exercises to deploy troops in Europe. Did you participate in one? How was your experience?

Yes however I was already in place for REFORGER 87 and 89. It was impressive to see the mechanism in place and in operation. Sadly looking back on it and looking at posts when they move a brigade around in Europe it is clear that it was perishable experience. Meaning that the Army largely forgot how to do large things without practice. Also being that we have effectively no prepositioned equipment in large numbers in Europe any longer that any sort of contingency is effectively a non-starter. I will say also I was rather impressed by the Bundeswehr's ability to mobilize their Territorial Army. The actual size of it impresses me even to this day, but also sadly that ability is a thing of the past.

16) By the 1980s Israel had used the M60 Patton in combat. Did you get any feedback on its performance or changes applied to variants?

Direct feedback no, not so much. Most of our curiosity of course was with the ERA Blazer armor. We knew of course that the design was a solid design and back in the 73 War the replacement of the hydraulic fluid to something non-flammable was the key upgrade. Most of my reading at the time was in the regard to funny against missile threat more than anything else. I knew that the fire control system of the 60 without range mostly anything that we would be facing, except missiles

17) What is your opinion on the Israel upgrades (Magach - also sold to Turkey as M60T)?

I do like the Sabra and the M60T. Definitely for what it is it is a an upgrade on defensive capabilities. But I do think that the m60-2000 with the M1 tire would probably be the best option for any sort of upgrade. That way it gets the ammo out of the hall and behind blast doors which generally is superior for crew survivability. If they fit the M60T with the trophy system that would go a long way as well but really the M1 turn option is the better way to go for the hull anyway. But of course the same can be said for the M48. The fire control sleeve is the same so you can mount thermal sights and fit a laser range finder. You could also fit a Sabra esque passive armor package, but as long as the ammo stays in the hull and exposing the turret your survivability is going to be less even with trophy.

18) M48/60 has a reputation for being an ideal tank for a conscript Army, being sturdy and reliable. Would you agree? How long do you think it takes to train a crew?

I think the M48/60 are solid designs for any sort of army. Of course now they're a bit long in the tooth. Maintenance of course has always beaten into our heads but that's not always the case across every Army. You can teach basic crew skills within a couple weeks, for gunnery it's best to have someone who has an idea of at least what they're doing and the same for commanding. I always said I could teach you everything you needed to know about a tank within two weeks, but that didn't mean that you wouldn't be dead soon as you rolled out of the motor park within 5 minutes. As an army you have to be willing to spend money. For ammunition for fuel, for maintenance across an entire spectrum. While I appreciate the different simulators that came on board in the mid to late 80s and such I am much more old school when it comes to actually mounting up and doing maneuvers. I attribute this to when I went in and it didn't exist but also to my days as OPFOR at NTC.

Other interviews:

I am always looking for more veterans, active members or people related with the defence industry to accept interviews. If you enjoyed reading the material and would be happy to accept an anonimous interview you can get in contact with me. My e-mail can be found in this link at the heading. Otherwise leave a message in the comment sections.

- Interview with a former Olifant tanker
- Interview with a former Chieftain tanker
- Interview with a former M551 Sheridan driver
- Interview with a former Centurion tank driver in the Army of Sweden
- Interview with a former Centurion tanker in the Army of Denmark
- Interview with a USAF pilot who flew the F-106 Delta Dart
- Interview with an US Army M48A5/M60A1 veteran tanker
- Interview with a former British artilleryman and veteran of the Gulf War
- Former M60 tanker in the Army of Austria
- Former Chieftain crew member
- Former Chieftain gunner
- AMX30 commander of the Army of France
- NCO of the Army of Serbia 
- Former crew member of Challenger 2
- Former Leclerc commander
- T-72 driver in Czech Army  
- US Army M60 tank crewmman
- Interview with D., former US Army tanker with experience in the M60 and M1 Abrams
- Interview with Stefan Kotsch, former NVA/Bundeswehr tanker  
- Interview with former Marine and writer Kenneth Estes