Interview with a former M60 tanker in the Army of Austria

A former M60 tanker in the Army of Austria was happy to accept an interview for my blog. L. served in M60 Patton tanks during the early part of his career. In 1991 he was deployed in the frontier with Yugoslavia as this country descended into civil war. Before starting the interview I would like to thank him for his time.

Hello L. Thanks for accepting the interview. Could you provide a brief overview of your career in the Austrian Army?

I was first crewmember (3years) Next tank commander for 10 years. Finally Platoon Leader, 14 years. And now since 11 years operation NCO or in German- Kompanietruppführer. Austrian Language – Kommandogruppenkommandant. With some mission abroad (ALBANIA 1 Mission Group Commander, KOSOVO 3 Missions- Platoon Leader, S3 NCO, Admin ORF Bat, BOSNIA 5 Missions LOT NCO Liaison Obserations Team) and of course some trainings mission in Poland, Germany, Swizerland.

All in all in the end of the year 38 years of service.

You served in a M60 Patton. What was your impression of the vehicle, and the strong/weak points?          

Was in service with a M60A3. In the first years (early 90) we are quite satisfied with the performance. Including the service in the year 1991 (protection border Yugoslavia). The last few years (until 1989- end of service of the M60 in Austria) we have some live fire test with T-72 from the DDR Army. And there we found out with our APDS we disrupt the front of the T72 first time at a distance of round 500m . So at least we are lucky as we change tank to Leopard.
 
When training, at was the typical distance to the objective and speed of the tank when you fired? And the longest distance at which you ever fired?

Distance was from 500m up to 2000m. in training. At this time we train only in Austria and the competition was only among the 3 armoured battalion’s ( PzB10- terminated 2005, PzB14, PzB33- terminated 2015 now a Infantry battalion). There are no international contact in the 80` and 90`. The longest distance we fired with a HEP (high explosive plastic) about 4000m (only a few times, the target was the dimension of a infantry platoon, for testing). Speed was for us this time also ok. Max speed of the tank was 35/40 Mph. For shooting it was 20 Mph (flat plain) 15Mph cross country ( you have to work together with the driver. Not use the breakes or to steer when you are to fire the main gun.

How was the night firing conducted? Did you use flares for battlefield illumination?
 
Only when we work together with our artillery (was very rare at this time)

At what sort of ranges could you fire with the IR projector?

Only the gunner had a low-light amplifier. And only experienced gunner could fire at a maximum distance of 1000m. And the night has to be bright (full moon, snow, fire…). We also use on regular basis floodlight ( every tank has one mounted on the maingun with IR and white light). For this we have special instruction how to use it. Normall distance about 800m in the night.

In terms of maintenance, was there any component or system that was more delicate? Were there any issues with the supply chain?

The motor was very stable. We could “repair” many little damages with crew resources. (starter unit, air filter…). The armoured tower also not so sensitive like the tanks today are. Laser was a little bit awkward to handle ( only a little number of measurement until out of order.

What was the typical ammunition configuration load (% APDS/HESH/Smoke)? Did you have specific rounds for certain targets (APFSDS for T-64/72/80)?

63 rounds for main gun 105mm, 800 rounds 12,7mm, 4000 rounds 7,62mm total load.

Main gun: 3 WP- White Phosphor  12 HEP- High Explosive Plastic, 18 HEAT – High Explosive Anti Tank (shaped charge), and in the first years 30 APDS Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot and later instead of this 30 APFSDS Armor Piercing Finn Stabilised Discarding Sabot.

Main battle tanks APFSDS.
Armored personal carrier HEAT (long distance) or HEP.
Infantry (platoon or coy) short distance MG (7,62mm/ 12,7mm) or HEP. Long distance HEP.
Unarmored vehicle also short distance MG (7,62mm/ 12,7mm) or HEP. Long distance HEP
Helicopter only if it run square to our tank APFSDS

What was the maximum distance you covered in a day during deployments or exercises? Was the mobility suitable for Austrian terrain? Did the tank cope well or needed extra maintenance?

Max distance was as I remember so round about 250 km. This mainly on regular roads. Cross country about 150 km a day. For Austrian Armed Forces it was quite OK. During time of cold war we have the system of “Raumverteidigung” (defence positions along the main routes from east to west and in Tirol from north to south). And the armored bataillon was designated for counter attack operations to destroy the enemy heavy armored forces. For the M60 it was no bigger problem. The only thing needed maintenance for the chain.

The M60 is one of the largest (and most comfortable) tanks. Do you think it was worth it (it was also a larger target)?

As we used it that was not a question for the crews. But we train as long as possible not to go in open areas ( if possible go along the forest edge) and try take up position with hull down. We had some worries about the cupola for the commander with the Cal 50 MG ( MG 85). It was only a weight of about 800 kg. and if there would be a direct hit it would flew away with the commander as we heard from the IDF.

The M19 commander cupola is one element which has not proved popular, and some operators removed it. What do you think?

As I wrote in the last question. But the Austrian Armed Forces do not want to remove the copula. So we train with it. But many of the tank commander thinking about to throw it of.

You served in an evolving era. The threat in the late 80s early 90s was a conventional conflict in Central Europe. It then moved on to fight against terrorism. How did this affect the training you did?

For tankers first hand not so much changed. But we start to train at this time to fight in build up areas.(short distance shooting, work together with infantry . protection . CRC technics, OP, Checkpoints …)

Did you practice NBC scenarios? What was the procedure?

We trained this on regular base. The M60 has a NBC filter system. But it worked only when the crew put on the NBC mask and connect it with the filter system, with e tube for every member. Because the tank was not tightly closed for gas.

Did you have the opportunity to train with other Armies? What were your impressions? Did you like/dislike any specific equipment?

Until the late 80 we do not train with other armies. Only when we are on mission abroad (Golan hights Cypern). So only peacekeeping missions and technics, we train at this time.

By the 1980s Israel had used the M60 Patton in combat. Did you get any feedback on its performance or changes applied to variants?

The information was not from the official system. We get it from articles from other countries. For instance, the problems with the cupola, effects ammo, supply….

In 1991 you were deployed for 3 weeks in the frontier with Yugoslavia. Could you share your experience? Did you get any intelligence on Yugoslav Army equipment?

The armored bataillon 14 was deployed to the border with only one coy. Most of the crew members were NCO`s and no conscripts. We put the tank commanders of one platoon in one tank together. So mostly the platoon leader was the commander and the gunner loader and driver are the three tank commanders.
The experience at this time, as I remember was very good. We are together a long time before this deployment, so we know each other and work very good together. We do each day oner “Demo Fahrt” a kind of patrol along the border. A show of force. And we have reconnoitred some hull down positions near the border for defence operations. Most of the information’s we get on normal TV program. Less information from our intelligence.

In the 1990s Austria had access to Soviet equipment like the T-72 tank. Did you have the chance to familiarise yourself with it? What was your impression?

The soviet equipment Austria bought was at first hand to test the effect of our ammo (APFSDS, HEAT..). We have the possibility to get in contact with the soviet tanks. An our impression was that the equipment was not so “technical” but very stabile when you have to use it.

The testing of the ammo with the M60 was for me very sobering. We started at 1200m target front- no disruption. Next was 1000m. Then 800m. And at least we get the first hit with an effect at about 500m.
We does this test in the middle of the 80` and from this time on the Austrian Armed Forces try to replace the M60 or to upgrade it in some ways. At least it ended with the buy of the Leopard2A4 from the Netherlands.

What is your opinion on the Israel upgrades (Magach - also sold to Turkey as M60T)?

For me it looks good. But for me it mostly depends what is the possible enemy in your region. And what are you using the tank for.Is your enemy better equipped than your own tanks.

Turkey has used M60s in Syria. What do you think of the way they are being used?
 
As I read and heared it was the same problem with the Leo`s ( the lost also some of them). Stay for long in the same position (2or more days). On modern battlefield are 5 up to 10 minute sometimes to long (artillery) No protection of mechanised infantry. And the crews are for my opinion not so well trained as the have to be.

Newer models of tanks have incorporated turbines and automatic loaders. What is your opinion of them?

May be I am old fashioned but the loader of our Leo´s can do their work in about 4/ 5 seconds. The problem of a jam is minimal with a human loader. And for me also very important, you have a forth crew member for all the work ( ammo loading, guard the tank, reparation of running gear….). I personally saw a problem with an autoloader (Leclerc) in SETEC 2017. One hatch was not 100% tight. So the autoloader say NO. and the one tank could not fire in the competition at this moment with this small problem. Would not happen with a human loader.

When it comes to turbines, I think you have some benefit ( high power with low weight) and some handicap ( Noise, high consumption of fuel, not from the first moment when you start the engine full power). So you have to be familiar with your tank and you get the best out of it.

What about the Armata concept, in which the crew is placed in the chassis?

As crew member it is quite interesting for me. In hull down position very save. Also the defensive hard and soft kill systems. Problem is if some of the electronic does not workas it should.

In the late 1990s the M60s were replaced by Leopard 2A4. Do you think it was a good decision? Could the M60s have carried on with an upgrade?

Like I say a few questions before. Depends on the possible enemy. And in the neighbourhood of Austria the equipment is “too good” for the M60 (105mm,stabilisation, speed…). At least the Leopard2A4 is to old and has to be upgraded in near future, hopefully.

Is there any anecdote you would like to share before we finish the interview?

The only thing to share is may be. All equipment is only as good as the crew is trained.

The Austrian tank crews at the SETC  (2017 1st, 2018 3rd) achieved it with the oldest version of the Leo in the competition. Only the penetrating power was not possible to test.

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